Town of Parry Sound v. Canadore and French School Board
14 Wednesday Aug 2019
Written by parry034 in Parry Sound, Reflections
Well this has become interesting if you are a fan of municipal politics and zoning.
Please take my comments in the same light as you would a sportswriter who follows the Maple Leafs and is offering an analysis of the team’s prospects; who might be traded and possible changes in team management. I’m just watching and offering some thoughts on what is likely to happen. I’m not particularly interested in the outcome. This may seem a bit cold to some but as you may discover it’s easier covering the Leafs if you’re not a Leafs fan. It allows for a little bit more perspective. I realize that there are people involved who will be impacted whatever the final decision.
I am of course referring to the request from The French School Board and Canadore College in Parry Sound to permit the use of the Canadore facilities for French elementary school education in Town. I will not rehash the arguments for, or against, the request but start with the decision of Parry Sound’s Council last night and forecast what I see as the near and longer term outcomes.
Last night Council resoundingly rejected Staff’s recommendation that the necessary rezoning request be approved to permit the use for a one year period of the Canadore facilities for a French elementary school. With a recorded vote the proposal was unanimously defeated.
In my experience the proposal of Staff was made in the best interests of Town resources and existing best municipal practices as outlined below and provided the opportunity for a negotiated settlement in the next twelve months. The decision of Council was political. They are after all politicians. They might like to think of themselves as judges weighing the facts and making decisions in the best interests of the community. But the request for a recorded vote clearly indicated that they didn’t want to be on the ‘wrong’ side of an unpopular issue. Having watched and followed Council for about nine years now I have come to realize that they really don’t want to oppose vocal organized groups – witness the fluoridation vote. If possible, they prefer to hand off the decision.
My belief is that the French School will be located at Canadore for the coming school year. The French Board is interested in renting the space and Canadore is interested in renting it to them. We have a willing seller and buyer. There is little or no time to make alternate arrangements on the part of the French Board and the basement of a church is not at all practical. It’s like asking them to move to the back of the bus. Terrible optics even if they are not real.
Canadore is not going to call the police to have the students, teachers and administrators removed from the campus. The Town won’t either, even if it had the standing to do so.
I am sure that the French Board will appeal Council’s decision last night, or I would in their position. This means the issue will be brought before a municipal tribunal for review and a final decision. It will take at least twelve months for the necessary hearings to take place and a decision to be rendered. The coming school year is safe. The French Board can in the interim make arrangements for the following year although I expect that it won’t need to.
I mentioned earlier that I think Staff made the ‘safe’ recommendation for a one-year use of Canadore. That’s because it will be very hard for the Tribunal to deny the appeal of the French School Board and reject their rezoning application. They may even suggest that it be extended to two years or more. I’m sure Canadore will present information that they do not have enough students to use the complete facility and that the French School can be accommodated without compromising their services. I suspect that Canadore will also argue that the revenue from the rental is critical to their financial future with the many Provincial Government cuts to education. The overall argument will be that there is unused space available and there is a group interested in renting it. It’s not as though the space is being rented for use as a Cannabis Store, a fast food establishment or a bank. The proposed rezoning is quite consistent with the established zoning and existing use.
What does the Town argue in return? Probably something like, the French School will make it more difficult for Canadore to deliver the post graduate and adult education services that were part of its charter. Canadore will probably respond that the remaining facility resources are quite sufficient to meet the education needs of the community. Canadore will likely argue that having excess unused capacity will not increase enrollment or programs but may in fact cause them to reduce offerings because of the financial squeeze brought on by the loss of a committed tenant.
The Town also will have a bit of a cost issue related to any appeal. Because Staff recommended that the property be rezoned, they will not easily be able to argue that the rezoning shouldn’t be approved. That means Council will need to go to outside counsel to defend their decision. The cost may be on the order of $50K or more. The French Board on the other hand has greater resources and I would imagine at least one staff Planner and Lawyer to organize and present their case. Parry Sound Council faced a similar situation about 7 years ago but dodged a bullet when the party who lost the rezoning request chose to fold their tent and not take it any further. More recently there was the case of the Royal Bank of Canada move to the south end. I was the person who opposed the move and appealed the decision. It cost me about $1K to win the first round but I folded after realizing that it would cost $40K to move to the next stage and parties that had initially offered support did not step up. The Town in the RBC move case had no financial liability because the developer picked up the costs that I expect were on the order of $40K just for taking me on in the first round and not winning. You’ve got to know when to hold them and know when to fold them.
That’s how I see it playing out in the near term. In the long term I think Canadore will wind up their operations in Parry Sound and retreat to North Bay in the next few years. What are you going to do about that Council? Have you unintentionally killed formal adult education in Parry Sound because of politics? But come election year they won’t have to take criticism for making a tough decision. They can blame the Tribunal.
Bonus prediction – the Leafs will be better than the Senators. Actually they have to be better. This prediction thing isn’t too hard if you consider the issues, identify alternatives, and don’t have a stake in the outcome.
No comments
August 15, 2019 at 7:33 am
Thank you for your unbiased opinion. I personally disagree with all these “save our campus signs”. I truly believe these people have failed to consider that Canadore College needs the revenue the French School Board stands to provide Canadore. Also, the French school board is looking for a short term rental. They are not looking to purchase the campus. They are looking for a space that is suitable for education while they get their feet on the ground. Using a space that is already used for education purposes makes sense!
Also, I am also deeply concerned by the discrimination towards the francophone families in our area. I have heard of a parent being yelled at in Walmart, to the point where she left her shopping cart and walked out of the store. When the French board went to view the space at the Penacostal church they were told they were no longer willing to lease to them and were not shown the space. To employees of the French school being followed and harassed in the canadore building. To the discriminatory social media comments telling French people to leave Parry Sound to seek a French education somewhere else. It is no wonder Parry Sound cannot retain young professionals when there is blatant discrimination.
August 15, 2019 at 8:49 am
Wow – I did not realize that this type of behaviour was going on in Parry Sound. Diversity whether with respect to age, religion, language, race or sexual preference is a strength not a liability. I do not suspect Town Council was in any way discriminatory in their decision but, as I wrote, the optics are not good, not good at all. In some ways Canadore seems to be an ideal spot for a short term rental, it’s not really in the way of general public traffic and Canadore seems welcoming in many respects.
August 15, 2019 at 9:28 am
I always appreciate your analysis, Jo, even when I disagree. I do have two questions though:
1) just to be clear, are you saying you think that the French school will simply ignore the zoning issue and go ahead and run the school in canadore this fall notwithstanding, because, sinning boldly, they know no one will call the police? In other words – open defiance of council?
2) I’m not sure about this continued use of the phrase “unused space” . When north bay gives the numbers – capacity of X, enrollment of <X, it does make it sound like there should be surplus space just sitting there. If that's the assumption, then I could see why people would wonder what the objection could be to utilizing unused space that was otherwise just sitting there.
To be clear, that was not at all the case. Even if total enrollment is down, space requirements are decided more by program. If, for example, I'm running 4 separate programs, then I will need 4 separate rooms. If each of those programs runs at only half capacity, I still need to have the whole room to run each effectively. You could not, for example, make the nurses and the carpenters each share half a room simply because on paper the enrollment numbers make that look efficient. In practice, it just doesn't work.
And that's what we're seen so far. Full disclosure, I've taught programs at canadore several times now. (I'm not f/t faculty, I'm not even p/t – I'm an occasional sessional instructor. I think that puts me in a good position on this matter – I'm disconnected enough to still be mostly unbiased, yet connected enough to have a better insider perspective than the average person sharing their opinion).
When I last taught this spring, we were already having to juggle classrooms to share amongst the existing programs. There has never been enough office space to give me any, for example, and so I've always had to conduct all my desk work on the fly. So my experience thus far is that, if anything, there was already insufficient room, nevermind extra, unused room. When I first heard the talking points out of North bay – that Parry sound had surplus room that could be leased to the French school without impacting existing programs – I thought it had to be a joke. When I realized they were serious, I decided they must be either maliciously lying, or seriously lacking in their understanding of the reality at the ps campus. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume the latter.
Put it another way: the northstar has already documented canadore staff being moved out of rooms, losing their offices. If that space was truly "unused" then why we're there canadore staff there to be moved? What were those teachers doing in that unused space… unless they were infact using it?
Council has said there were least ten other alternate locations. If using canadore will displace existing canadore teachers and detriment existing canadore programs – as it would – then surely that can be taken as a basis for saying that canadore is, at very least, not the ideal choice, right? I mean, surely the ideal choice would be a location that doesn't detriment something existing, right? So if canadore is not the ideal location, are all nine other alternatives really worse? Forget the Pentecostal church already – how about the other 8? What was wrong with the second floor of shoppers? That's a new building, separate entrance and washrooms, and more importantly, it's actually vacant!
August 15, 2019 at 10:17 am
Yes, I think the French Board will move the school into Canadore. At this point they have no other options and cancelling the school at this late date would be disastrous on many fronts. The legal system will give them cover. Ask any landlord about how hard it is through the legal system to get a tenant evicted and out of the building. In that case there is not a willing buyer and seller. Recently Trestle Brewing Company went ahead and put in extra seating before receiving approval. They not only didn’t get a gentle slap, they got a slap on the back from Council and the parking requirements were waived. At worst Council will grumble and then need to decide if they will actually put up the money to defend their rezoning decision. They will be advised that they will lose. So, will they decide to spend a bunch of money and then face the embarrassment of losing the appeal with the lingering sense of some sort of bias in their initial decision. In the U.S. Brown v. Board of Education case that kickstarted integration in the Deep South there were many people who resented the intrusion in their way of life. The later policies by the Democrat president in the 1960s furthered the resentment. The Deep South used to be a solid base of support for the Democrats but it has been anything but for the past 50 years. Sometimes you need to step up despite the possible consequences.
Work expands to fit the available time. That may be the case at Canadore when it comes to space. I am conscious about the change in ‘personal space’ when the kids come home with grandkids. There is still lots of space but it feels ‘cramped’. I then think about families in places of conflict like Syria where they are forced to lived in a single room. If people are truly interested in receiving an education, and delivering an education, they need to be flexible.
August 15, 2019 at 10:45 am
three thoughts:
1) defiance of council. I don’t know what to be more disturbed by – that you think that could happen, or that it actually could happen. If people can just ignore council as the wish, then what good is council? Without the rule of law, what good are we?
2) I get the Syria analogy. (I’ve remarked to my wife before that the 4 times we have moved in our life, we have – quite literally – doubled our square footage each time; yet today we feel just as cramped and cluttered as ever). I don’t think it applies here though because of the difference in the proposed usages. A better example might be a two-car garage. If I have a two car garage, but am only using one bay, then yes, on paper I have a 50% surplus of space. But that not necessarily be the case in reality – it depends on the application. If someone else comes in and proposes to lease the other bay to also do auto mechanics, then that can work, and we can get an efficient use of the space. If someone came in, however, and propose using the other side for computer repair or a tailor shop, then that would not work, as the two uses are not compatible. A tailor, for example, could not afford to have flying grease or metal shavings getting all over the garments. The point is, sometimes an application can take up all the space even if it’s not technically using it all. If you have a 20 person room, you could easily fit one 10 person reading group and another 10 person writing group. You could not, however, fit a 10 person reading group and a 10 person brass band!
3) Its still not clear to me what your justification is for one particular presumption. North Bay has said the PS Campus has the room. Sheri Cox, the local person whose job it was actually to schedule those rooms, explained openly to the newspaper that the campus did not infact have the rooms. Myself, an instructor with actual experience using those rooms, has confirmed to you that the PS campus does not in fact have the room. Your Syria analogy, however, says to me that you still believe North Bay; that you’re thinking “I know you guys don’t *think* you have the room, but really you do, you just don’t realise it because you’ve gotten used to taking up more space; you’ll feel cramped at first, but you’ll get used to it, because really, you do have the room.” That’s what, to me, you appear to be saying. So my question is, what is your basis for that? On what basis do you choose to believe that North Bay is correct – that there is the spare room there – and Sheri and I are incorrect? I am basing my conclusion on my first hand experience, on what is yours based?
August 15, 2019 at 11:07 am
Point 1 – Ryan, Ryan, Ryan. People ignore/defy the wishes of Council all the time. Most of the time they don’t ask for permission, just forgiveness if/when caught. In the case of the French School Board I suspect they believe that Council made a wrong decision and they don’t have the time to wait for an official correction. What will be the consequences if they were to lose? They need to get the kids into classes and the process started. I wouldn’t worry about hurt feeling at Council if I were them. Remember, Staff suggested the one-year approval. This is all about politics. If you remember the whole Fluoridation episode, Council caved to an organized public group. They didn’t just keep the fluoridation going and put the decision off to the voters at the next election, they stopped the fluoridation immediately despite best medical opinion and their earlier decision to keep fluoridation. I have defended Council on a regular basis for their decisions that wrinkle some people. But put a crowd in front of them – Fluoridation, parking, and now Canadore, and they get weak in the knees. In their defense they are the folks who get the calls and the personal attacks. The job is a part time gig, and it doesn’t pay for the grief they take. And some people resent that they get paid. Do the job. I understand the situation they faced and their reaction. They are all good people trying to do the best for the Town.
Point 3 – There are players, coaches and owners. They don’t always agree or provide a unified face to the public, especially when the team isn’t winning. I hate to say this, but I suspect that some players may be ‘traded’.
August 15, 2019 at 10:13 am
I would just like to point out that if you look at the minutes and agendas from when 1 College Drive was being built the council had stated that they would rezone that property to Institutional before the opening of Canadore in September 2011.
This seems to have falling through the cracks over the years and forgotten.
August 15, 2019 at 10:19 am
I did not know that but I’m not sure I understand what it means and the possible implications. Please clarify as best you can.
August 16, 2019 at 11:40 pm
If the rezoning has been done at that time like it should have, none if this current conversation would be taking place. The space would have been zoned appropriately to rent out to the french school, and the town would have had zero say in the matter. Instead any appeal and public campaign against the idea would have been directed solely at the college. How the college would have dealt with that kind of organized campaign I can’t begin to guess, but I have strong suspicions it would not have garnered nearly the public interest that it has, given to platform of coucil meetings for all the depositions and discussions that have taken place.
Instead they are having to come back to council and ask for the zoning change. The arguments used by the members of coucil to deny the rezoning had nothing to do with the zoning concerns, which the town staff felt were adequately addressed and recommended the amendment, so the argument can be made that their denial of the amendment was to deny french enduation in Parry Sound, which would be a violation of our charter rights.While I don’t believe that was their intention with their decision, and instead cowered to public pressure as you suggest above, the argument can still be made for this, and puts them on very shaky ground for the appeal, which I’m told is being pursued agressively.
August 17, 2019 at 9:37 am
John, looking at previous comments to this post I see that the rezoning to institutional was required and apparently was not completed. There is however a covenant mentioned that restricted the use of the property to a “post secondary educational and training school”. This suggests there was some intent to limit its use and not only deny use as an elementary school of any sort but also any other ‘operation’ that did not fit the definition of post secondary and training school. A reasonable question is whether the covenant extends beyond the 10-year period that the mortgage will be forgiven, about 2020/21.
I suspect, but am not qualified to confirm, that had the zoning been approved the Town could have brought suit against Canadore for breach of the covenant. My sense is that the net/net would be the same. The French School doubtless will be moving in and a legal or tribunal or mediation type action will follow. Whether the zoning change as required would have made a difference is not clear. What seems clear is that the Town had an intent at the time of the ‘effective’ donation of the property for it to be used only as a post secondary educational and training school.
Despite what the optics may suggest I think Council does support a French School but not at the cost of losing the the Town’s only post secondary education resource.
On June 15, 2010
The Agreement of Purchase and Sale proposed for authorization by this report will:
set the purchase price at $300,000.00 (fully forgivable);
allow easements for the access road, storm drainage and service lines;
create a mortgage that will be forgivable over a 10 year period as long as the school continues to operate;
create a restrictive covenant that will restrict the use of the property to a post secondary educational and training school and apply appropriate setbacks and regulations;
obligate the Town to rezone the lands in an Institutional zone by September 1, 2011;
obligate the Town to provide services, a sidewalk and a driveway to the property line and scheduled completion dates (recognizing that the entrance driveway may have to be relocated depending on funding approval);
obligate the purchaser to accept the property in an “as is” condition
August 15, 2019 at 10:53 am
On June 15, 2010
The Agreement of Purchase and Sale proposed for authorization by this report will:
set the purchase price at $300,000.00 (fully forgivable);
allow easements for the access road, storm drainage and service lines;
create a mortgage that will be forgivable over a 10 year period as long as the school continues to operate;
create a restrictive covenant that will restrict the use of the property to a post secondary educational and training school and apply appropriate setbacks and regulations;
obligate the Town to rezone the lands in an Institutional zone by September 1, 2011;
obligate the Town to provide services, a sidewalk and a driveway to the property line and scheduled completion dates (recognizing that the entrance driveway may have to be relocated depending on funding approval);
obligate the purchaser to accept the property in an “as is” condition
August 15, 2019 at 12:55 pm
Jo, I still see at the heart of this issue one question that should be a matter of fact: will the adult education programs at Canadore be detrimental by a French school, or not?
To me, that should be a yes or no question, and it should be a matter of fact, not a matter of opinion. Either the answer is yes or no.
Now, once that question is answered, you can then decide whether or not, on that basis, allowing the French school there is a good idea.
The way I see it, there really ends up being three possible positions:
1) I don’t believe the French school will detriment the AE programs, therefore I think it is a good idea to allow it.
2) I do believe the French school will detriment the AE programs, but I still think it should be allowed.
3) I do believe the French school will detriment the AE programs, therefore I do not think it should be allowed.
Now, obviously I hold position 3.
It sounds to me like you hold position 1.
I would like to think the folks in North Bay hold position 1, and that’s certainly what they’ve claimed. On the other hand, I agree with you that North bay is probably losing money on the PS campus, so I do wonder if there isn’t some position 2 going on – they know the French school will detriment the AE programs, but they’re fine with that because they don’t mind unloading a money-loser.
I would also like to think that most the parents of the French students are in position 1, though I also suspect that, human nature being what it is, some of them would, if pressed, admit that if they had to choose between detrimenting the AE programs or benefiting their kids, they’d chose their kids.
Bottom line, I think most supporters of the French school are good-faith holders of position one.
But as I said, the foundational premise of whether or not the AE programs will be detrimented should be a matter of fact.
I was trained in the humanities where research privileges primary sources. From that perspective, I give more weight to the testimony of those on the front line, e.g. Sheri Cox or myself, than I do to the declarations of secondary administrators in North bay.
So in my judgement, the AE programs will be detrimented, which means all those people in position 1 are mistakenly holding a position that does not exist.
August 15, 2019 at 1:55 pm
Ryan, I respect and appreciate your intellect and your reasoned thoughts. Nonetheless, I think I am about to piss you off.
You sound like a white Southerner complaining about the costs and the local impact of school integration. There is no question in my mind that many white southern children were negatively impacted by integration. They were bused, they probably went to schools that were not as well resourced, and they had to deal with people their parents told them were beneath them. That was the price of equality, or some semblance of it. Some children I suspect grew up even more hateful of their non-white classmates. Some learned and grew from the experience.
The proposed use of Canadore will not result in anything as traumatic as was seen with U.S. integration. It may create some stress. We are all subject to stress and you have a choice on how you respond.
Frankly, I don’t lean towards any of the three choices. I do acknowledge that there will be change. I am a process person trying to understand and predict the outcomes of the situation. Perhaps my analysis will better help folks understand the likely outcomes of this whole episode so that they won’t be too surprised and can respond in their best interests.
Ryan, I look forward to you running for Seguin Council at some point and dealing with real world issues such as these. Or start by joining a not-for-profit board with financial challenges and the duty to provide important services to people in need. Cut services or cut employees? Hmmm, let me think about that. Sometimes there is no right answer but the wrong answer is giving in to folks just because they have the loudest voice.
August 15, 2019 at 2:19 pm
Thanks Jo. I rarely get passed off over a disagreement – I don’t think that’s how disagreement is supposed to work (that in itself is a lesson I think needs to be remembered more often these days).
The comparison with southern integration is a little humorous to me personally since – and I don’t think you could have known this – I come from a bi-racial family!
Over all I don’t think the comparison works, any more than, for example, comparing the coming of the French school to Parry sound with the arrival of Europeans in North America and their subsequent colonization of the natives – I mean, in both cases a group came from away and saw space that seemed perfectly suitable to them for their own pursuits, so, not caring that the space was already occupied by people going about their own lives, they displaced those people and took the space for themselves. Good comparison, no?
I have served on municipal committee’s before, though nothing in Seguin yet. I do try to participate as much as I can. In this case, I wrote council. And the main point I tried to make to them was that there is no reason to choose here. We don’t have to choose one or the other. There are at least 8 other alternate sites that town staff thought were worth looking at. I expect at least one of them could provide the same level of service to the French school without detriment the programs at canadore. So, aside from not giving some budget relief to the administrators in North bay, why choose? Why not have both?
August 15, 2019 at 3:26 pm
One doesn’t need to be black or any other colour to be prejudiced. One doesn’t need to be straight to disapprove of those who are gay, lesbian, transgender, bisexual or queer.
My point is that it seems you think this can’t work, a hypothesis, so it shouldn’t be tried. My training was to create a hypothesis and then test it to see if it was right. If it wasn’t, the hypothesis needed to be changed and the testing process repeated. Because I think may not mean that I am, or that you are. But if I bleed, and you bleed, we both probably exist. Probably.
It’s clear that the French Board didn’t do this to hurt Canadore in Parry Sound, or hurt the adult education students, or piss off some people in Parry Sound. There may well be bigger issues that are beyond our knowledge. Doing a little back of the envelope calculation suggests that Canadore in Parry Sound is losing money. That’s a situation that can’t be ignored in the long term. It’s full time students who pay the bills through tuition and probably provincial subsidies. No matter how many ‘workshops’ and evening meetings that are organized it won’t be enough. And Canadore in Parry Sound has competition from other organizations, even Canadore in North Bay for full time students. I have expressed before my sense that Parry Sound is not a ‘destination’ of first or second choice for students. That means it needs to specialize and offer courses that appeal to a targeted population. Or it needs to draw from a relatively small ‘local’ student base. I have seen how new services and products can quickly ramp up to find that they have exhausted the available market. There aren’t too many people buying flat screen TVs or computers anymore. How many PSWs does the area really need? There certainly was a pent up need for the course in our area but once the backlog is filled there may not be enough new students every year to support an annual program. I don’t know, I am not directly involved, and don’t have the numbers.
Keep on being involved. Get to the point where you not only express an informed opinion but are responsible for the final decision and its consequences.
One wonders if the French Board threw Canadore in Parry Sound a lifeline. With some financial stability perhaps Canadore can review their strategic plan and come out in better shape. Even two years of ‘disruption’ shouldn’t kill an institution if it really has a valuable mission.
Feel free to respond but I’m going to check out of the discussion. I’m not sure I have anything else to offer. Thanks again for your thoughtful input, I believe reading this thread will be helpful for many people.